Alpha 0.6b Build 12261

[elektroinside]

With the cross-feed on, the volume is also reduced with ~5% from what i can tell/hear. It is also visually noticeable (take a look at the screenshots attached). This is a very high level of cross-feed filtering. Could you give some details about it? What is the frequency response and the time delay response of the filter?

[BTGbullseye]

No warnings from Avast... Probly because I turned off PUP detection.

Also, just an FYI... Encrypting the pro version won't significantly slow piracy once Resonic becomes famous. Nothing really slows piracy.

[Andreasvb]

I think they meant piracy as in getting to the code by e.g. RE.

[Blackout]

will we see another beta before Christmas?

[Tom]

will we see another beta before Christmas?

Definitely, yes. Guess not

Hopefully the first public beta as a parallel "unstable" download, but... we'll see.

[Tom]

Also, just an FYI... Encrypting the pro version won't significantly slow piracy once Resonic becomes famous. Nothing really slows piracy.

You'll see.

I think they meant piracy as in getting to the code by e.g. RE.

That.

[Tom]

With the cross-feed on, the volume is also reduced with ~5% from what i can tell/hear. It is also visually noticeable (take a look at the screenshots attached). This is a very high level of cross-feed filtering. Could you give some details about it? What is the frequency response and the time delay response of the filter?

After quite a bit of research I decided to go with a Bauer stereo to binaural implementation with a cutoff set at 700 hz, which I found to be working quite well, especially when combined with an additional mid boost (M/S). The latter, and presets, are still to come.

The library is also in use by the foobar bs2b plugin, but is natively implemented in Resonic.

More info on how it works:
http://bs2b.sourceforge.net/

[elektroinside]

The library is also in use by the foobar bs2b plugin, but is natively implemented in Resonic.

More info on how it works:
http://bs2b.sourceforge.net/

I don't know... something is not right. My ears hear a pretty significant difference with the cross-feed ON (tested all weekend, speakers and headphones as well) and i'm not talking about the stereo image which is obviously seriously affected. Dynamics are pretty much affected as well, though sound quality, for what i can tell, remains the same. I never had any problems listening all day long to my headphones, so i think i'll leave this option disabled. But, and this is my personal opinion, the idea of cross-feed filtering is not an improvement added to the delivered sound. Modifying the stereo image in order to get rid of ear fatigue or headaches is a workaround for the most sensitive of us, but only from a medical point of view. It somehow degrades the listening experience and should only be used in non-critical monitoring environments and/or home listening...

[Blackout]

I don't know... something is not right. My ears hear a pretty significant difference with the cross-feed ON (tested all weekend, speakers and headphones as well) and i'm not talking about the stereo image which is obviously seriously affected. Dynamics are pretty much affected as well, though sound quality, for what i can tell, remains the same. I never had any problems listening all day long to my headphones, so i think i'll leave this option disabled. But, and this is my personal opinion, the idea of cross-feed filtering is not an improvement added to the delivered sound. Modifying the stereo image in order to get rid of ear fatigue or headaches is a workaround for the most sensitive of us, but only from a medical point of view. It somehow degrades the listening experience and should only be used in non-critical monitoring environments and/or home listening...

I agree with all of these sentiments and I think it will prove to be a waste of your time Tom to be working on this. it will rarely be used and will just be seen as a toy function that degrades the sound. Theres so many more important and bigger-picture functions that need your attention if you ask me.

(elektro youll find if you collapse any stereo track to mono or various degrees of it that the "punchiness" changes...ie dynamics. that's fairly normal and to be expected. sounds start to cancel to varying degrees, and other sounds (eg snares etc) start to get boosted, etc. so its not necessarily this cross-feed algorithm or process that is doing it specifically...its an artifact that's to be expected from any messing with the stereo field)

[Andreasvb]

It's just a convenient effect when using headphones.
Just disable it and it won't touch anything of your precious bit-perfect stream.

[elektroinside]

I agree with all of these sentiments and I think it will prove to be a waste of your time Tom to be working on this. it will rarely be used and will just be seen as a toy function that degrades the sound. Theres so many more important and bigger-picture functions that need your attention if you ask me.

(elektro youll find if you collapse any stereo track to mono or various degrees of it that the "punchiness" changes...ie dynamics. that's fairly normal and to be expected. sounds start to cancel to varying degrees, and other sounds (eg snares etc) start to get boosted, etc. so its not necessarily this cross-feed algorithm or process that is doing it specifically...its an artifact that's to be expected from any messing with the stereo field)

Yep, i know, i'm very familiar with the process of modifying the stereo image and that it effects the dynamics (and also with the cross-feed, from headphone amps with cross-feed switch, which i also never use, i guess i tried it once or twice). I never used a software filter (cross-feed) though, because i knew the effects from the hardware amps. I also never paid any attention to it, except this w/e for testing purposes, so i learned some stuff about it, just to know "technically" what Tom implemented in resonic, so i can test it correctly.

You are right, messing with the stereo image, using any type of filters, in pre or post-production, is not a good idea. It can mislead, for example you will try to modify some other sound processing chain elements, like a compressor or expander etc. without any reason and without being necessary. resonic cannot be used (yet) for live monitoring, but listening to the already mastered results (using cross-feed for example) can be misleading, because it alters the original stereo image.

[elektroinside]

It's just a convenient effect when using headphones.
Just disable it and it won't touch anything of your precious bit-perfect stream.

True. We are just talking about development time here, that's all... Will anybody ever use it? If so, why and how many? My personal opinion is that not many of us will use it.

[elektroinside]

Just a cosmetic issue (or feature?): when expanding the seek-bar beyond a certain limit, the shaded area turns into a thin bar, like a cursor.

[Andreasvb]

True. We are just talking about development time here, that's all... Will anybody ever use it? If so, why and how many? My personal opinion is that not many of us will use it.

It's just the beginning of the DSP they're making, the first step. Right now it's internal work, no options.

Just a cosmetic issue (or feature?): when expanding the seek-bar beyond a certain limit, the shaded area turns into a thin bar, like a cursor.

It's a safety measure, so it doesn't work too hard. It should be in the change log somewhere.

[Tom]

We are just talking about development time here, that's all... Will anybody ever use it? If so, why and how many? My personal opinion is that not many of us will use it.

That might be true, but there are concepts stuck to the crossfeed feature that go far beyond just the crossfeed effect itself. Also, there are two sides to the project: Player and Pro. Try to see the bigger picture.

And while I'm always open to opinions and suggestions I'd appreciate it if the laying out of development time was left to me.

[Tom]

Just a cosmetic issue (or feature?): when expanding the seek-bar beyond a certain limit, the shaded area turns into a thin bar, like a cursor.

It's a safety measure, so it doesn't work too hard. It should be in the change log somewhere.[/quote]
That.

The absence of translucency saves CPU, and looks better on short files, rather than just hiding the shaded area like in the Alpha, which felt weird.

[Tom]

Anyone stumbled upon features from the Alpha that are still missing in the Beta?
Like paste, which is in as of yesterday.

[BTGbullseye]

I think they meant piracy as in getting to the code by e.g. RE.

That.

Ah... Though I doubt people will want to do so so as to steal from you. (it's too much work for too little payoff)

Just a cosmetic issue (or feature?): when expanding the seek-bar beyond a certain limit, the shaded area turns into a thin bar, like a cursor.

It's a safety measure, so it doesn't work too hard. It should be in the change log somewhere.
That.

The absence of translucency saves CPU, and looks better on short files, rather than just hiding the shaded area like in the Alpha, which felt weird.

Honestly, I like the look of it. You should probly put in an option to make it like that always.

Anyone stumbled upon features from the Alpha that are still missing in the Beta?
Like paste, which is in as of yesterday.

Not that I can find.

[EDIT]

Now minimized player sometimes doesn't advance to next track. Right after opening/restoring window playback continuous.

I also just got this... It was when it was going from an MP3 to a FLAC file, and it refused to play the FLAC until I un-minimized the window. (I think the reason I didn't get this before is that I usually don't have mixed file types in the same playback folder)

[Tom]

The absence of translucency saves CPU, and looks better on short files, rather than just hiding the shaded area like in the Alpha, which felt weird.

Honestly, I like the look of it. You should probly put in an option to make it like that always.

I too like it Will add an option in Beta 2.

Now minimized player sometimes doesn't advance to next track. Right after opening/restoring window playback continuous.

I also just got this... It was when it was going from an MP3 to a FLAC file, and it refused to play the FLAC until I un-minimized the window. (I think the reason I didn't get this before is that I usually don't have mixed file types in the same playback folder)

Martin may have fixed that, please check again in the next build.

[Blackout]

And while I'm always open to opinions and suggestions I'd appreciate it if the laying out of development time was left to me.

consider yourself told elektro!

[Tom]

And while I'm always open to opinions and suggestions I'd appreciate it if the laying out of development time was left to me.

consider yourself told elektro!

I agree with all of these sentiments and I think it will prove to be a waste of your time Tom to be working on this. it will rarely be used and will just be seen as a toy function that degrades the sound.

[Blackout]

I was hoping to dodge that bullet Tom and bump the blame hehe. ok point taken

[ThomasHelzle]

FR:
When using the brilliant "Add recursively" feature for folders, it would be great to have an indication in the filelist, what folder the file is in and/or being able to sort by folder first, then by one of the other criteria.
Could even make sense to somehow mark folders by alternate colours or borders/headers...

Any plans in that direction?

I think I'd even like to have the "add recursively" as an optional default - it's how I listen to music in foobar2000: simply selecting an artist folder and then seeing all contained songs, independent from (but sorted by) album.
There are many sample libraries that structure their content in too many folders for convenient pre-listening...

No problems to report so far...

Cheers,

Tom

[Alt]

With both Alpha and Beta I have some delay/latency while switching to MP3 files with enabled "maintain playback position...". This problem occurs even with identical MP3s.
Other formats seems fine.

[Tom]

FR:

Please, next time here: http://forums.resonic.at/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=288

When using the brilliant "Add recursively" feature for folders, it would be great to have an indication in the filelist, what folder the file is in and/or being able to sort by folder first, then by one of the other criteria.
Could even make sense to somehow mark folders by alternate colours or borders/headers...

I've been thinking long and hard about possible solutions, as internally this is a really complex problem. No luck so far, though. I'd probably simply add a new path column to begin with.

Colors are a bit tricky, too. Too many of them may make it hard to theme the design.

Thinking about some kind of alternating color blocks or markings, like imagine even/odd row coloring (http://i.stack.imgur.com/ICjMJ.jpg), but in larger blocks.

I think I'd even like to have the "add recursively" as an optional default - it's how I listen to music in foobar2000: simply selecting an artist folder and then seeing all contained songs, independent from (but sorted by) album.

When the feature reaches a mature state that could become an option, but by default it would still be off. There are quite a few (smaller, but apparent) issues with it right now.
You can ALT-click folders, btw, to invoke recursive add (handling needs work as well).

There are many sample libraries that structure their content in too many folders for convenient pre-listening...

Exactly.
My usual reaction to sample CD "structures": http://tinyurl.com/ngh4j9c

This feature eliminates the need of restructuring for me.

[Tom]

With both Alpha and Beta I have some delay/latency while switching to MP3 files with enabled "maintain playback position...". This problem occurs even with identical MP3s.
Other formats seems fine.

What kind of delay exactly? How long is it? All MP3s, or just a few? VBR/CBR?

[Jan]

Merry X-Mas <3

[Tom]

Merry X-Mas <3

To you as well

[Alt]

With both Alpha and Beta I have some delay/latency while switching to MP3 files with enabled "maintain playback position...". This problem occurs even with identical MP3s.
Other formats seems fine.

What kind of delay exactly? How long is it? All MP3s, or just a few? VBR/CBR?

It's interrupt of playback, then repeat of the previously played part. Interrupt continues nearly 36 ms.
Problem occurs with all MP3s I tried (VBR & CBR).
I see that words are not enough so demonstration attached.

P.S. Nice logo change Merry Christmas 2 all!

[BTGbullseye]

The absence of translucency saves CPU, and looks better on short files, rather than just hiding the shaded area like in the Alpha, which felt weird.

Honestly, I like the look of it. You should probly put in an option to make it like that always.

I too like it Will add an option in Beta 2.

Now minimized player sometimes doesn't advance to next track. Right after opening/restoring window playback continuous.

I also just got this... It was when it was going from an MP3 to a FLAC file, and it refused to play the FLAC until I un-minimized the window. (I think the reason I didn't get this before is that I usually don't have mixed file types in the same playback folder)

Martin may have fixed that, please check again in the next build.

Sounds good.

[elektroinside]

Adding files to an existing folder which was previously opened in resonic (in the browser), will list the newly added files in the browser instead of the file list, even non playable files. Also, when deleting a file from the file list, will keep the deleted file until the list is refreshed from the browser (refresh is broken in the file list).

Check attached print-screen.

P.S. Merry Christmas to all!

[Martin]

Adding files to an existing folder which was previously opened in resonic (in the browser), will list the newly added files in the browser instead of the file list.

That's a new one... What kind of files are those?

[elektroinside]

Adding files to an existing folder which was previously opened in resonic (in the browser), will list the newly added files in the browser instead of the file list.

That's a new one... What kind of files are those?

Most of them mp3s, very few flacs, and one torrent (so non playable files as well)...

[Martin]

Thanks, will be fixed in the next build.

[elektroinside]

Thanks, will be fixed in the next build.

Great!
When do we have a final beta? Is there going to be another build before the final beta? Is so, i think it would be a good idea not to implement any other new features after that build, so we can avoid breaking any other code. We can also concentrate on what it is available and find as many bugs as possible.

[Blackout]

And while I'm always open to opinions and suggestions I'd appreciate it if the laying out of development time was left to me.

(Blackout ducks for cover...)

[Tom]

(Blackout ducks for cover...)

Is there going to be another build before the final beta?

Yes, before new year's.

[elektroinside]

(Blackout ducks for cover...)

Blackout - i'm not trying to tell Tom what to do, he's an extremely capable developer, he knows what to do and what is best for resonic, i am trying to tell him what is usually the best practice before a release, adopted all over the world by software companies, which had the time and money to research these stuff. Actually, my advice is softer than the usual best practice, which involves a mandatory 'code-freeze' period before the release, when no development is done, not even bug fixing, just QA. Bugs found is this period have levels of severity. A 'level one' bug (the most severe level) found in the code-freeze period means postponing the release with a least a month (there is a reason why such a big period) and this is usually very bad for the product and the marketing department. All other bugs will become known issues, posted to the general public, and will be fixed with later updates.

We are not a big company, there is Tom and Martin (liqube) and us. But, resonic wants to be something unique. It has to be unique not just by design of the code, the features and speed, but also as stability and reliability, because nobody likes bugs, but everybody likes a stable and bugless product. So why not learn from the big boys, who invested a lot of time and finance in researching what is best for a software product and learn something from them? Or, why close our eyes and ears and not even listen to what others are doing? We don't have to do everything they do, some of the stuff applies exactly because they are big teams and need other management rules, but others could be applied everywhere.

So this is all, having several ideas for what to do and how i think is a good idea. I cannot know what Tom knows or doesn't, so i cannot know if Tom already knows all these or not, to avoid telling him what already knows. I'm no software guru or Zeus of .net or C#, but i do work at a big software company and i know what problems we had in the past and how we fixed them and what results we had after. This is years of expertise and testing solutions. Time is something you cannot speed up. A good word will not hurt anybody, it's up to Tom to decide what he does next (or doesn't) anyway. But he may receive a good advice at a point. I don't think Tom gets angry because of it.

[Blackout]

heya elektro. excellent post.

im just playin around man and having some fun. Tom seems like a fantastic guy with passion and a sense of humour. I don't think he is remotely pissed at you or me. Im sure he appreciates our help testing his software and sees us a valuable contributors.

Elektro you sound like you are just as passionate about resonic as I am. I come from a music production/engineering background (my first vinyl release was back in 1994 using an Atari ST and Akai S1000 sampler) whereas it sounds like you know a lot more than me about software programming. But I have helped design a successful vst instrument plugin recently, and had input into the design and beta testing of a similar wave player to Resonic called Basehead.

I think Tom is lucky to have us both giving him feedback! Resonic is going to be the best ever!

Merry Christmas!
Blackout.

[Tom]

You are right, Blackout.

Now get a room you two.

[Tom]

Some stuff I'd like to add, but not to start a full-on discussion here. This thread is for testing, please, thanks.

there is Tom and Martin (liqube)

I'm Liqube, always have been. The label making Resonic is Liqube Audio, right now.

I'm no software guru or Zeus of .net or C#

C++

Big company concepts, etc.

I've been doing this for a long time. I know big-project concepts, but mine - my overall way of working - gladly are quite different.

had input into the design and beta testing of a similar wave player to Resonic called Basehead.

Resonic - find sh*t faster.

Anything in particular?

[Tom]

Another intermediate build coming up tomorrow:

Countless fixes, several essential medium-sized structural and stability reworks, live refreshing of file list meta tags, update check server-side done.
Also, we're on the way to the waveform, but not quite there yet.

[Blackout]

Resonic - find sh*t faster.

Anything in particular?

hi Tom, not sure what the question is?

[Tom]

Anything in particular?

hi Tom, not sure what the question is?

I meant, any suggestions of yours in particular that got implemented? Just curious.

[Blackout]

not sure how aware you are of Basehead Tom...I was drawn to it as it was the only sample manager for a while. It was VERY expensive, and requires this infernal CM dongle. Steve mainly aimed it at Hollywood movie and game producers who were looking for sound fx, it has all these weird server stuff and tagging and a lot of things i think 90% of ppl would never use. I was pushing for a "move" and folder locations etc hehe but also for a "Basic" version actually... that just had the important features for a DJ producer to use. I think i turned him around into the concept and to organize for it to be on the DVD covers of magazines like Future Music and Computer Music as part of their monthly collections. But tbh im not sure where that's up to, and since i found Resonic (after seeing it mentioned in FM!) i have hardly loaded up Basehead since actually! the dongle thing is a dealbreaker for me and a real pain, it slows the software loading up considerably etc and although both Basehead and Resonic will have their own markets, its funny how my mouse tends to speak for my preference and i seem to load Resonic first these days.

theres also "Sample Librarian" but im sure you already know about it as well

[Tom]

not sure how aware you are of Basehead Tom

Very aware. I've followed its progress every now and then since it appeared on the horizon many years ago.
But see, there is so much unbelievable weak programming out there, so I'll just try to stay civilized and say that I'm really not seeing it as any kind competition whatsoever.

infernal CM dongle

Dongles really are the middle finger to a customer's face.

I was pushing for a "move" and folder locations etc hehe but also for a "Basic" version actually... that just had the important features for a DJ producer to use. I think i turned him around into the concept

Important moves, though. And a "basic" version attracts audience. The was part the idea behind Resonic Player, although I always wanted to take time to work on the foundation and start off with (portable) freeware.

and to organize for it to be on the DVD covers of magazines like Future Music and Computer Music as part of their monthly collections. But tbh im not sure where that's up to, and since i found Resonic (after seeing it mentioned in FM!)

That's quite nice, actually. Big audience and many PC users. InsideInfo offered to write a CM column, but I'm still not sure if he took the job.

Do you remember the FM issue #/or month Resonic got mentioned in? I might have overlooked it, but I'd really like to share that.

i have hardly loaded up Basehead since actually! the dongle thing is a dealbreaker for me and a real pain, it slows the software loading up considerably etc and although both Basehead and Resonic will have their own markets, its funny how my mouse tends to speak for my preference and i seem to load Resonic first these days.

There's a reason why features are taking such a long time to implement in Resonic. It's not always because they couldn't be implemented quicker, but because such a project is like a house of cards: you quickly reach a certain height, but if you haven't put the utmost care into the substructure it will eventually collapse. What I'm trying to say: it's important tto rethink/improve/rearrange/rework things until they are ready for further building on top of them.

Often times you can observe the exact opposite with software: a project is started, coding is rushed, then suddenly it sucks. But what's really bad, when internally the code sucks. There's usually no way back, unless you spend a ton of money or take a lot of time to rework things.

theres also "Sample Librarian" but im sure you already know about it as well

Yeah, of course. The RyAudio one is actually not that bad, compared to the rest, altough it seems they've been resting for way too long. Code won't improve itself right.

[Blackout]

i got so excited when i saw Sample Librarian and then once i used it, it drove me nuts. the whole deal where you must "scan the hard drive folder" first and "add" it to the list is infuriating. And then it leaves little waveform scan files everywhere in every folder, i went bezerk and it took me a whole day to go through some of my sample cds and remove the extra folders. needless to say i was not impressed. Plus the graphics makes it look like one of those toy "Youtube Downloader" apps that are full of adware... not that SL is full of adware just the look of it (if you know what i mean)....a good idea just badly executed.

i will find the issue where resonic was mentioned for you. If i was you , i would approach both FM and CM once the free Resonic is 100% finished, and allow them to add it to their core list of progs they put on every month. it will fit their demographic perfectly, they already issue samples every month on the discs and for you its be the perfect plan to introduce ppl to resonic, so they can then upgrade to the paid "Pro" version.

Basehead has not done this yet to date...i would jump in first man

[Blackout]

PS actually it was Sound on Sound (SOS) where i read about Resonic.

here:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may13/a ... s-0513.htm

Martin Walker is always on the case and never misses a thing. very highly regarded journalist.

[Tom]

the graphics makes it look like one of those toy "Youtube Downloader" apps that are full of adware... not that SL is full of adware just the look of it (if you know what i mean)....

You kinda describe what I couldn't describe myself But yeah, looks a bit dated.

If it only was the interface with these apps though. With Basehead you have the total opposite: trying to go with a fancy animated UI and still utterly fail. No one, not a single serious professional finds joy in this fading and zooming and sliding when it's done like that.

I would approach both FM and CM

When the time is right.

Actually it was Sound on Sound (SOS) where i read about Resonic.
Martin Walker is always on the case and never misses a thing. very highly regarded journalist.

Couldn't agree more.
Martin will be pleased to read that. He's actually in here (no, not the Resonic Martin).

If you look closely at the main page on http://www.resonic.at ... I decided to cite his kind words.

[Tom]

resonic-test-141228-11733b
One of the bigger reworks so far.

Please do not actively test the waveform. It is a work-in-progress preview only and far from done, but I decided to include it nevertheless. It all updates at once when the scan is complete, which may take a while depending on the length of the file being played back. The visuals are preliminary.

Worth mentioning is live updating of tags, i.e. you edit a file outside of Resonic and the changes can be seen in the file list's columns.

Internally a lot of important stuff was improved, which is usually not listed unless it's on the todo. Anyways, we closed these todo items: